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IV. PWPP Interview with Stephane Wrembel

By PWPP November, 01, 2010 02:36:00

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image courtesy Stephane Wrembel

Noted Gypsy jazz musician talks about the situation of Roma in France and his experiences in the gypsy camps.

PWPP: Hi Stephane, it’s been awhile.

Wrembel: Yes, almost two years.

PWPP: Thank you for agreeing to talk with us about recent events in France related to the Roma. As a French musician that has spent time in the Gypsy camps we’re interested in your perspective. But, first, can you tell us how you discovered gypsy jazz and a little about the timeframe, your apprenticeship, did you get to learn from any first-hand sources, the legends?

Wrembel: Well, I’m from Fontainebleu, France, the home of Django's music, and I started learning it when I was 18 or 19. I wanted to study jazz and the only "jazz" guitarist I knew was Django Reinhardt, that was my only reference to jazz, Django. I started in music by learning classical piano and rock guitar and then I wanted to explore jazz improvisation techniques. Django was not technically a jazz guitarist, but I started there. I went to the Django Festival in a neighborhood of Fontainebleu, and I learned the traditional way. I studied with masters and went to the gypsy camps to play. You play with these guys all day long, all week with this guy, and it gets into you. You start to get to know the people, the sound is there, all day long, over and over again, and it just gets inside you.

PWPP: Do you feel like you have any inside information on what has been happening in recent months with the stepped-up expulsion of Gypsies and the order to destroy some 300 Gypsy camps – events that have focused the human rights community, as well as the EU, on France?

Wrembel: It’s a big mystery. There are four groups of Gypsies, or “Tziganes,” they all come from Rajasthan, India about 1300 years ago, spent time in Egypt, some went back to Rajasthan, some went to northern Africa and into Spain and some went to other parts of Europe. The group that came up to Europe through Spain are called Kale. They play flamenco, they don’t speak the traditional language any more. Then you have Rom, the Roma, they are based in Eastern Europe – Hungary, Romania,… The Sinti , or Manouche, are based in France, Germany, Holland, Northwestern Europe. The Yenish are a fourth group, and they’re very small, just north of Germany, a very small group, inter-married with Yiddish. They no longer speak the traditional language either. The only ones still speaking traditional language are Rom, and Sinti as well. The Kale play flamenco and stuff like that. In France, you have mostly Sinti and Roma. You have some Kale in southern France and they all have their own rules, meetings, etc.. There is a book by Jan Yoors that will plunge anybody into their world. The only Gypsies that I know personally are the Sinti – the French Gypsies.

PWPP: Sounds like you’re preparing us for a complex answer to the question about recent events…

Wrembel: Yeah, I don’t know exactly what is going on in France right now. I always try to see both sides. The first thing I see is that Sarkozy is a very direct person; he says things right in your face and some of the people in France don’t like this very much. Anything that he is going to say or do in France will be taken as offensive by some. People against him will find anything they can to dirty him some more. He’s not very popular for this reason.

PWPP: By ordering the expulsion of Gypsies who have committed crimes and the orders to destroy Gypsy camps, it sounds, frankly, like Sarkozy has it in for the Gypsies. Some reports have even suggested that there might be a political motivation – that with a bad economy and a slipping approval rating, he needed to get tough on someone, and the Gypsies may be the scapegoats.

Wrembel: Speaking about the Gypsies, and my experiences with them, most of the people I know are very charming, and the camps I lived at are very nice. You have musicians around, dancers, tool-makers, and the like, but there are some real trouble-makers in some of the camps, too. The Gypsy culture is very ancient and they have a specific way of living. The French have a different way of living so they are constantly at war. The Gypsies cannot be other than who they are, and the French have a hard time understanding. There is almost complete misunderstanding between the two worlds. It’s basically a war between nomadic and sedentary lifestyles. Sedentary will win. The Gypsies in France will fall the same way as they did in Holland. I predict camps will be built to house them in urban areas and they will be forbidden to travel. If you look at the situation of Gypsies in Holland, this is what I think will happen in France.

PWPP: I’m surprised that you seem to be defending Sarkozy and the French government.

Wrembel: I think Sarkozy is ignorant of what it means to be a Gypsy. Many people who have not spent time with them cannot understand what it means to be a Gypsy. It’s a complicated way of being, of thinking. Some Gypsies create problems, just like any other group – they’re just people. So, I think they’re handling now, the problem of traveling and such, relates to Sarkozy wanting to be more in control. So, I see a war between the two cultures and the Gypsies aren’t going to win.

PWPP: Do you envision the Gypsies assimilating in France?

Wrembel: The nomadic travels with the wooden wagons and horses is not possible any more anyway. They’re not really moving around much and it costs a lot to travel now. The Gypsies I knew were always in the same camps. They are not free like they used to be, it’s more of a state of mind now. But I think it’s going to go to official camps and then total sedentary life, apartments, things like that. You know some people say, “Gypsies are bad,” and I’m sure that’s not what Sarkozy is saying. He said we have a problem, there is a constant clash, and we have to do something about it. People try to cover their eyes so they can say, “Ah, everything is good, we have no problems,” and things like that. But, that’s not true, there are serious problems in France and you’d have to live in complete denial to not recognize that.

PWPP: If there isn’t a pervasive anti-Gypsy slant coming from the government in France, how do you account for the differences in French immigration laws towards Bulgaria and Romania?

Wrembel: That makes sense because everybody would come. And a million of them would probably come immediately. We’re in a situation right now where the smartest thing would be to try to bring some balance to the world economy – reduce the gap between the third world and the developed world – that’s the real problem. If you’re a little bit honest with yourself, there are people in the US who don’t like Bush but they like Obama. They think he’s a smart guy, honest, and working on the things they support. They feel if they vote for him that makes them nice people and the world is going to turn pink. If you really think about it, they’re really two different faces of the same machine. It's really all about being politically correct. Personally I like none of them…

PWPP: What are your thoughts on the expulsion of Roma who have committed crimes?

If you say the French government is expelling Roma who have committed crimes, I don’t see anything wrong with that. I’m French and I live in the U.S. with a green card. If I commit a crime, the U.S. government will kick me out and I can’t come back for 10 years. I know if I get out of line they’ll kick me out, so I’m respectful and obey the laws. That makes sense to me and it’s the same situation in France. To me, it’s not wrong. Philosophically, I’m for a peaceful world, one without borders, but that’s a world that we won’t have in a few weeks; it will take generations.

PWPP: Some reports claim that there are 400,00 itinerant travelers in France and only 20,000 of these, or 5%, are Roma. Other reports have suggested that the troublemakers have not been the Roma but itinerant travelers of French descent. Do you have any insight on that?

Wrembel: The French government can’t kick out the other 380,000 because they are French. They’re Gypsies who were born in France. Look, the Gypsies have to face the reality. They will probably try to fight, but the giant is going to kill their way of life. They can’t survive as they have been in France. Eventually, there will be no more Gypsies. In France, they are finishing the nomadic life. It was already almost dead because gas there is three times the cost as it is the US, and you need a big car to pull a big trailer. It’s expensive for them to travel now and they can’t afford it. And, they’re rejected everywhere they go. So, for many years now they’ve basically been staying in the camps. I think the government of France is going to build them official camps, legal camps, like they did in Holland. Eventually, they will be in some kind of apartment arrangement.

PWPP: You’re late for your gig.

Wrembel: Yes, I need to go.

PWPP: What would you like to see happen in France, and elsewhere, regarding the Gypsies?

Wrembel: I’d like for people to try to see how both sides see the situation. Be pragmatic. Try to be in the middle, you can’t really take sides on this issue. Everybody has their own issues, their reasons for feeling the way they do. It is always hard to separate what makes us feel good, and the reality of what's happening. That's the reason why we should always be extremely careful before judging one side or another. Always put yourself in the shoes of both parties.

PWPP: Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Stephane, it’s been a pleasure to talk with you.

IV. PWPP Interview with Stephane Wrembel

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